Socialist ends by market means: A history

Marginalism, Markets, and Prices

• One thread debates whether marginalism fundamentally depends on market prices.
• Consensus: marginalism is about choices over concrete goods; it can exist without explicit prices, but quantitative accounting (profit/loss, costs) requires prices.
• Some participants reference attempts to synthesize marginalism with labor theories of value: marginal utility dominating short term, labor costs anchoring long-term prices in competitive, “freed” markets.

Wage Slavery, Class Conflict, and Political Dichotomies

• Several comments argue that “Left vs Right” is a distraction from the real divide: wealthy vs poor.
• “Wage slavery” is contested:
  • One side sees it as describing structural power imbalances and lack of real alternatives for workers.
  • Another side dismisses it as rhetorically inflated, stressing individual responsibility (saving, job mobility) and legal freedoms.
• There’s friction over whether “options” are meaningful if all options still involve exploitative wage relations.

Markets vs Capitalism; Co‑ops and Mixed Systems

• Multiple commenters stress that markets and capitalism are not identical.
• Examples from rural areas (ISPs, stores, gas stations) and large federated co‑ops are used to show that shared ownership can function inside market economies.
• Some see “markets with social ownership” as a win for classical liberalism: once markets are accepted, they view it as de facto capitalism, with “socialist” rhetoric mostly rebranding.

Scale, Infrastructure, and Regulation

• Large-scale firms are discussed through railroads, highways, container shipping, and computing:
  • One view: technological change and economies of scale naturally drive planetary-scale firms, making co‑ops uncompetitive.
  • Counterview: consolidation often depended on state support (rail regulation, sanitary laws, highway subsidies), which advantaged large firms and undercut smaller competitors.
• Disagreement over whether modern tech has raised optimal firm size “above planetary scale” or whether administrative overhead and competition remain limiting.

Social Safety Nets, Crime, and Welfare Design

• Debate around social safety nets:
  • One side sees welfare as necessary to prevent poverty-driven crime and support those who can’t work.
  • Another points to large fraud cases as evidence of perverse incentives, arguing enforcement is the real problem, not welfare itself.
• International examples (Australia, Israel, South Africa, Singapore) appear as contrasting models of pensions, work requirements, and crime.

Central Planning, Natural Monopolies, and State vs Market Roles

• Some comments equate state control over production with suppressing market signals, arguing that planners cannot match decentralized price information.
• Others note that “communism” doesn’t logically require strict central planning, only that it historically coincided with it.
• Natural monopolies (rail, roads, power lines, last-mile internet) are debated:
  • One side: physical and timing constraints make real competition limited.
  • Other side: networks, multimodal transport, and backup channels still provide alternatives, even if costlier or imperfect.

Human Nature, Incentives, and Socialism’s Feasibility

• A recurring theme is whether socialism depends on “reprogramming” humans to be less self-interested.
• Critics say any system where some get more for doing less will generate resentment and breakdown; they see this as universal, not unique to socialism.
• Supporters reply that:
  • All systems redistribute; capitalism does it via philanthropy, inheritance, and state-backed wealth.
  • Human behavior is strongly shaped by upbringing, culture, and institutions, not fixed selfishness.
  • The article’s vision isn’t about abolishing self-interest but redirecting it in non-capitalist property structures.

Corruption, Power-Seekers, and System Stability

• One worry: a minority of highly exploitative personalities (psychopaths/narcissists) will capture any hierarchy.
• In capitalism they become CEOs, politicians, celebrities; in socialism, they may become corrupt officials, potentially destabilizing the system more deeply.
• Some participants see no convincing design yet that harnesses these people’s drive without letting them wreck egalitarian structures.

Co‑ops, Ownership Models, and Examples

• Co-ops are discussed as serious, scalable institutions, not just niche hippie projects.
• Large worker co‑ops are cited as evidence that worker ownership can coexist with complex, globalized operations, often benefiting workers more directly than shareholder-driven firms.

Meta‑Critique of Economic Theorizing

• One thread expresses frustration with what’s seen as “navel-gazing” about Smith, Marx, and labels.
• This view asks for empirical modeling, simulations, and experiments rather than endless reinterpretation of canonical theorists and ideological branding.