Leaving the U.S. for the Netherlands

Stay and Fight vs. Exit

• One camp argues leaving “when things get bad” worsens outcomes: you lose your vote, presence, and capacity to resist authoritarian drift.
• Others counter that U.S. elections are already structurally skewed (gerrymandering, Electoral College) and many votes effectively don’t matter.
• Some note you can still vote from abroad (often via provisional ballots), though there’s debate whether those are consistently counted and whether the system leaves people feeling disenfranchised.
• A “prisoner’s dilemma” frame appears: if everyone stays, maybe democracy survives; if many leave, the rational move may be to leave early.

Global Authoritarianism and Systemic Risk

• One thread portrays a “sinking ship” world: if the U.S., China, and Russia go fully authoritarian, no liberal democracy survives intact; Europe is described by some as militarily/economically/energetically dependent.
• Others call this hyperbolic, stressing mutual interdependence, Europe’s non‑vassal status, and the EU’s shift away from Russian energy.
• Debate over how vulnerable Europe really is to Russia: some are relaxed, others warn that if Russia wins in Ukraine, Europe’s security position worsens sharply.

Netherlands as Destination (and Its Limits)

• Dutch-American Friendship Treaty (DAFT) is highlighted as an unusually easy route: ~€5k into a business account and a one‑person “business.”
• Upsides cited: high personal freedom, English proficiency, walkable cities with good amenities, strong social systems.
• Major downsides: severe housing shortage, very small/expensive properties, high taxes including a low‑threshold wealth tax that especially bothers FIRE‑oriented people.
• Some Dutch residents explicitly plead: “go anywhere but the Netherlands” due to housing pressures.
• Alternatives suggested: other EU states (Spain, Portugal, Eastern Europe, Nordics), Switzerland, New Zealand; disagreement over relative salaries vs. cost of living.

Quality of Life: U.S. vs. Europe and Others

• Several comments: U.S. is excellent for the top ~20% (high pay, elite healthcare access, cultural institutions); significantly worse for the median and poor.
• Counterpoint: even lower‑income Americans today enjoy material comforts better than decades ago; dissatisfaction is often relative status.
• Europe is praised for healthcare, safety, transit, and work‑life balance; criticized for taxes, bureaucracy, and weather.
• Personal stories: moves from U.S. to Europe (e.g., Austria, Spain) described as dramatic QoL upgrades; one Australian compares both U.S. and Australia unfavorably to Europe due to racism, militarism, and social policy.

Guns, Freedom, and Safety

• A long subthread frames U.S. appeal for some as liberal gun laws and strong free‑speech protections; such commenters see gun bans as intrinsic state violence and an existential risk.
• European and other posters push back: they rarely consider gun policy when choosing where to live, see widespread firearms as a net safety negative, and stress data on domestic gun deaths.
• There is sharp disagreement over whether more guns prevent tyranny or mainly increase suicide/accidental/household violence.

Immigration, Duty, and “Entitlement”

• Some immigrants to the U.S. view Americans wanting to leave as entitled “giving up” when they’re most needed.
• Others respond that this logic would equally condemn their own emigration; moving to align with one’s safety and values is framed as rational, not cowardly.
• A recurring theme: if you can maintain political engagement from abroad while improving your and your family’s security and wellbeing, leaving is a defensible choice.

Meta: Paywall and Media Snark

• Many complain about the New Yorker paywall and wonder why paywalled pieces trend on HN.
• Some mock the magazine’s stylistic quirks (e.g., “reëlection” diaeresis) as pretentious but mostly treat this as side amusement.