I taught the Iliad to Chinese teenagers (2021)

Original Article ↗ Hacker News Discussion ↗

An American teacher’s account of using the Iliad to teach argumentative writing and big moral themes to elite Chinese high-schoolers prompts debate over pedagogy, rigor, and what constitutes “bullying” in the classroom. Commenters contrast harsh but highly detailed feedback plus mandatory rewrites with more typical one-shot grading, and link students’ responses to broader cultural norms around conformity, rebellion, and respect for authority. The thread widens into a reflection on why and how foundational texts—Western and Eastern alike—should be taught, which works are most impactful, and how much context and adaptation different audiences need.

Teaching approach, grading, and “bullying”

  • Many applaud the described method: harshly graded first drafts, detailed feedback, mandatory rewrites, and very high standards paired with high teacher effort.
  • Some see this as “shock and awe” pedagogy that may unfairly depress initial grades, but most argue it is rigorous, transparent, and not bullying if expectations are clear.
  • Commenters contrast this with typical schooling where essays get a single immutable grade and little substantive feedback.
  • Debate arises over whether using the first assignment to “establish dominance” is pedagogically sound or unnecessarily intimidating.

Student culture, authority, and rebellion

  • Several agree that Chinese students (and immigrant children in the West) tend to be more attentive, disciplined, and deferential than typical American students.
  • Others reframe this as conformity vs. rebelliousness, arguing that American culture idealizes independence but is actually highly conformist in practice.
  • Long subthread on whether obedient, compliant teenagers are desirable versus rebellious, critical thinkers; some stress that learning requires discipline, others that critical resistance is essential to avoid manipulation.

Choice of the Iliad and alternatives

  • Some question why teach the Iliad rather than the Odyssey or major English-language works, and worry about double translation (Greek → English → Chinese).
  • Defenders note centuries of good Homer translations and that the course used selected passages, not the entire poem.
  • There is extended comparison of Iliad vs. Odyssey: Odyssey is described as more relatable and adventure-like; Iliad as darker, more focused on honor and war.

Classics, memorability, and media

  • Thread repeatedly broadens to “what makes a work worth teaching”: life-changing potential, memorability, and depth versus disposable entertainment.
  • Many lament that much modern film/TV is forgettable compared to enduring classics, but others point out that most works in any era are forgettable and only the best are remembered.
  • There is debate over “classics” as universal versus taste-dependent, and whether pushing difficult canonical works on all students is elitist or empowering.

Eastern vs. Western canon reciprocity

  • Several praise exposing elite Chinese students to a foundational Western text, but argue Western students should likewise be systematically exposed to Chinese and other non‑Western classics.
  • Some note that Western liberal-arts curricula do include Confucian, Daoist, and other Asian texts, but usually from a Western perspective and not by Chinese-based scholars.
  • Concerns are raised about asymmetry: Chinese institutions eagerly import Western teachers and texts; Western institutions do far less to platform Chinese professors teaching their own tradition.

Chinese analogues to the Iliad

  • Commenters propose various Chinese works as rough analogues:
    • Epic/heroic narratives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms, Water Margin, Journey to the West.
    • Broader classical corpus: Classic of Poetry, Book of Documents, Spring and Autumn Annals, Records of the Grand Historian.
  • There is discussion of which are closer to the Iliad (war epic) versus the Odyssey (journey narrative), and recommendations of translations and TV adaptations.

Oral tradition, memorization, and text form

  • Several discuss the Iliad as designed for oral performance (meter, formulaic phrases) and note parallels in other cultures’ long memorized epics.
  • Debate over how much full memorization demands a specialized, socially supported role versus being integrated into everyday work and storytelling.
  • Some wish for modern works written intentionally in an oral, metrically strict style.

Interpretations of characters and ethics in Homer

  • Commenters disagree strongly on Achilles: some see him as a bloodthirsty, petulant villain; others emphasize ancient honor codes and religious context rather than modern moral standards.
  • Similar arguments arise about Odysseus, whose massacres and enslavements are shocking to modern readers but depicted casually in the texts.
  • Several stress that the value of teaching Homer lies partly in grappling with an ethically alien world and seeing how questions of fate, power, and honor resonate or clash with today’s values.