Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011)
English once distinguished between an informal singular “thou/thee” and a formal or plural “you/ye,” but over time “you” absorbed nearly all uses and the older forms became archaic or even perceived as formal due to their survival in scripture and literature. Commenters compare this shift with modern T–V distinctions in languages like German, French, Spanish, Dutch, Portuguese, Hindi, and Japanese, highlighting how pronoun choices encode intimacy, hierarchy, respect, and even insult. Many note that English’s loss of this distinction simplifies interaction but also removes a nuanced social tool that other languages still struggle to navigate.
Historical roles of “thou” and “you” in English
- “You” originated as the plural and became the formal singular; “thou/thee/thy” were singular and increasingly informal, then rude, before largely disappearing.
- Many readers misinterpret “thou” as formal because they mostly see it in the King James Bible, Shakespeare, and liturgical language.
- Historically, English mirrored other Indo‑European languages with a singular informal vs plural/formal distinction.
Modern survivals and dialectal usage
- Northern English dialects (Yorkshire, Lancashire, some Quakers, some rural/Amish contexts) still use forms like “thee/tha/thissen,” mostly in fixed phrases and among older speakers; usage is fading and hyper‑local.
- “Ye” survives colloquially in parts of Ireland. Some dialects also preserve distinct 2nd‑person plurals like “yous,” “yinz.”
Second‑person formality in other languages
- Many languages have T–V systems: German (du/Sie), Dutch (jij/u), French (tu/vous), Spanish (tú/usted, vos), Italian (tu/lei/voi), Portuguese (tu/você/o senhor), Slavic languages (ty/vi, etc.), Hindi (tu/tum/aap), Persian, Korean, Japanese, and others.
- Often the plural pronoun becomes the formal singular (e.g., German Sie, French vous, Spanish ustedes, Brazilian Portuguese você, Dutch u).
- Some languages add extra layers (Romanian’s dumneata/dumneavoastră; Slovene/Slovak third‑person polite forms).
Religion, literature, and perceived formality
- Bible translations (especially KJV) and Shakespeare consistently used thou = singular, ye/you = plural, independent of politeness.
- In many European languages God is addressed with the informal form (French tu, German du, Yiddish דו, Bengali “tui”), emphasizing intimacy, which contrasts with laypeople’s modern perception of “thou” as formal.
- Literature (Tolkien, Hemingway, others) exploits thou/you contrasts to signal intimacy, disrespect, or social distance.
Social dynamics and anxiety around T–V
- Commenters from T–V cultures describe real friction: overthinking first address at work, power asymmetries, and regional variation in “what’s polite.”
- Some wish their languages would collapse to a single form like English; others value the nuance and see dropping formality as cultural loss.
- Several languages show formality eroding (German Sie, Dutch U, Swedish and Norwegian polite forms, Quebec French) under both social change and English influence.
Second‑person plurals in English varieties & evolution
- English compensates for the lack of a formal “you” and plural distinction with forms like “y’all,” “all y’all,” “yous/yinz,” sometimes with subtle differences (group size, implied family, or politeness).
- There is discussion of pronoun change more broadly (singular they, Japanese/Korean pronoun “euphemism treadmill”).
Orthography, etymology, and “ye olde”
- Thread clarifies that historic “ye” for “the” comes from printers substituting “y” for the thorn (þ) character; “ye” as a pronoun is separate.
- Etymological notes trace “you” and “thou/du/tu” back through Germanic and Indo‑European roots; thorn and eth usage in Old English and Icelandic is briefly discussed.